Fernando Llorente

Discussion in 'Transfer News' started by BrakeYawSelf, Aug 31, 2017.

  1. Just a Spurs fan Well-Known Member

    Just a Spurs fan
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,247
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +475 / 4 / -0
    Good signing I think. Experienced, good in the air, and on the ground. Doesn't seem goal shy, and already knows all about the league.
  2. TheSpurEST Well-Known Member

    TheSpurEST
    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,109
    Location:
    Estonia
    Ratings:
    +1,144 / 33 / -0
    Ok, now that he is in our books let's take a look at him a bit -

    Last year he was signed by Swansea from Sevilla (some here have missed that from Juve he went to Sevilla where he flopped, playing only 1160 minutes in La Liga scoring 4 goals that is awful return by his own standards) on free transfer.

    He started really slow - scoring 1 goal within first 12 rounds (out of which he started 8, was used as substitution once and left out of squad in 3 times). But worth noting the only goal came against City. After that he started to score more regularly, but it is very important to note that dominant part of his goals came in pairs - he scored twice in 4 games and once in 7 games.

    Out of this 15 total goals he scored *
    ----------------------------------------------
    -3 with left foot
    -4 with right foot
    -8 with head
    ----------------------------------------------
    - 9 goals came from open play
    --- 3 with left foot
    --- 5 with head
    --- 1 with right
    - 6 from dead-ball situations
    ---3 from free kicks
    ---------1 right foot
    ---------2 headers
    ---3 from corners
    ---------1 header
    ---------2 right foot
    ----------------------------------------------
    - 12 goals in games he started
    - 3 when he was substituted on
    ----------------------------------------------
    - 1 goal (out of 7 matches, avg mintues per goal 564) under Guidolin
    ----- left footed, open play
    - 5 goals (out of 9 matches, avg mintues per goal 103) under Bradley
    ----- 2 left footed from open play
    ----- 1 right footed after free kick
    ----- 1 right footed after corner
    - 9 goals (out of 17 matches, avg mintues per goal 141) under Clement
    ----- 4 headers from open play
    ----- 2 headers from free kick
    ----- 1 header from corner
    ----- 1 right footed after corner
    ----- 1 right footed from open play
    ----------------------------------------------
    - 6 goals during 1st half
    - 6 goals during 2nd half
    - 3 goals during extra time
    ----------------------------------------------
    - 10 goals against bottom half team (at the moment of game)
    - 5 goals against top half team (at the moment of game)

    Among 5 against top half he scored two against Pool, one against Man City, Chelsea and Everton

    On average he scored 1 goal for 163 minutes on pitch in EPL. If we take out the period under Guidolin, it decreases to 128 mins.

    So what is the bottom line - he seems versatile striker who can score with both feet if needed and of course is good in headers. While looking at his goals clips is seemed that he has this good striker sense to be in the right place and quickly tuck it in. Clearly under Guidolin things were not working out. And under Clement there were lot more of (accurate) crosses played on him resulting in significant amount of headed goals.

    * Regarding classification - I counted the situations right after corner as corner goal even if it was not only touch after corner, meaning if there was confusion in the box in Liverpool game where he scored one goal, I counted this as corner despite the fact it did not came straight from header following corner kick.
    • Informative Informative x 6
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Larcenist Active Member

    Larcenist
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    747
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +202 / 0 / -0
    I was really happy with this signing when I saw it in my Spurs news feed at work today. Pleasant surprise. Hopefully he'll work out and take the pressure of Harry a bit. Probably won't be around for a long time, but something I feel will add to the squad depth tremendously which is exactly what we needed.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Shacklebolt 'Ello

    Shacklebolt
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,818
    Location:
    Scandinavia
    Ratings:
    +1,767 / 32 / -0
    I do agree with some of the concerns raised in this thread. Llorente isn't a carbon copy of Kane (...who is anyhow?) and he probably requires a different type of service to be effective. That said I feel Llorente is much more versatile than at first glance and most importantly he has scored goals almost everywhere he has played.

    Once again we came very close to having basically zero net spend. So around 10-15m was probably what Pochettino and Levy had at their disposal. We just won't find a better striker at these sums. Of course we could once again have tried one of these hail-mary signings from Ligue 1 but it's been shown time and time again that being a good player for a mid-tier team in Ligue 1 or the dutch league isn't good enough these days. Especially if you want a player that doesn't need baby sitting and / or 1 or 2 seasons to adapt to the EPL.

    There isn't any guarantees that Llorente will be successfull at Spurs. There never is with any player. But I'm quite confident in saying that he will be more of a goal threat than Janssen is at the moment. That is how desperate we are for squad depth up front which in itself is a tad sad. But as you make your bed you have to lie in it. We have seriously neglected our striker options for a long time.
  5. ctw01 Well-Known Member

    ctw01
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    11,535
    Location:
    N Wales
    Ratings:
    +3,792 / 49 / -0
    For those of you over reliant obsessives of modern day stats , coaching manuals and valuations this signing of tLlorente will leave you cold, but for others this is a signing that fills you with pure excitement and anticipation of watching a genuine number 9 CF terrorising defences and making things happen in the box.
    Thoughts of Bobby Smith, Alan Gilzean and Martin Chivers spring to mind with this , andI I dont doubt Llorente will offer similar qualities to our sometimes one dimensional attack and judging by what he achieved with Swansea , then that"ll do for me, genuinely excited .
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. KTM87 Active Member

    KTM87
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    358
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +237 / 1 / -0
    Didnt everyone say that last season after the signings we made?

    And the season before that?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. mr whitey Well-Known Member

    mr whitey
    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2013
    Messages:
    2,654
    Location:
    uk
    Ratings:
    +2,315 / 31 / -0
    No, as always there was a wide variety of opinions, last season and the season before that.
  8. BrakeYawSelf Well-Known Member

    BrakeYawSelf
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,401 / 235 / -0
    Perhaps they said it, but I don't think it would have been as true as it is with Llorente. We haven't really signed a player like Llorente in a while. I would say going all the way back to VdV. I think he's honestly the closest to the Llorente signing, as far as experience and possible impact in this entire decade. I might be forgetting someone, but the things Llorente brings to the club are fairly unique relative to what Spurs have done in the past.

    I don't know if we did enough overall. But I would absolutely say Llorente is the type of player that CAN be that difference.

    Will have to wait and see. But I think we finally have a proper backup to Kane. A guy who would have walked into the starting 11 had he arrived before Kane.

    Personally, I am extremely happy with this past transfer window. The only thing I would have added is a DLP type CM to contrast Dembele and perhaps rotate with Dembele and Wanyama. A creative one.

    If we had signed a player like that I would suggest that this window was near perfect for Spurs . As it was without this player I would still rate the window about a 7 or 8 out of 10. Which I think is a very good window.

    The problem with this sentiment relative to the prior 2 years of signings is no one signed was nearly as much a known commodity. So maybe some said it about VJ I guess? Or Sissoko? I am not sure. But none of those players would have drawn the confidence the Llorente signing should. They were all either very much unknown commodities or of questionable EPL ability.

    This is a guy who has been around the block more than once and has built a great reputation. Someone who has done it at every level.

    It's quite an unusual signing for Spurs, but the type of signing I woudl expect more and more as we try to compete for the top prizes.
  9. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,136
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +2,809 / 73 / -0
    VDV was a legit star in his prime who just wasn't getting the minutes at a loaded Real Madrid team. Llorente is a fading player at the very tail of his career who we picked up from a team that finished 15th in the PL. Theres no comparison.

    The only apt comparison I can think of is Parker, who was the same age as Llorente when we signed him. Also the standout player from a struggling team. Of course we paid less than half for Parker as we did for Llorente, though with inflation it's closer. If we get a Parker level performance, it will probably be worth it.
  10. BrooklynYid Well-Known Member

    BrooklynYid
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    3,875
    Location:
    No sleep till...
    Ratings:
    +2,142 / 35 / -0
    Heck, if we get at least 3 PL goals out of him it will be worth it. The bar was set pretty low.
  11. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,136
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +2,809 / 73 / -0
    I think the bar is quite a bit higher than that.
  12. BrooklynYid Well-Known Member

    BrooklynYid
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    3,875
    Location:
    No sleep till...
    Ratings:
    +2,142 / 35 / -0
    Well, our backup striker scored, what, 1 PL goals last year? That seems pretty low to me. Guess you could be generous and count Son in there but I am not. I think Llorente will easily justify his purchase price. If he doesn't we might be screwed.
  13. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,136
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +2,809 / 73 / -0
    Janssen scored 2 goals total in about 1050 minutes. If your bar is one goal more than that for a similar number of minutes, you're setting the bar way too low. I would expect Janssen himself to do significantly better in his second season.
  14. BrakeYawSelf Well-Known Member

    BrakeYawSelf
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,401 / 235 / -0
    I wasnt soley basing it on age this instance. But VdV had the type of top level experience that Llorente has. Brought that kind of experience and success to the team. That type of confidence and perhaps "wisdom"

    Plus is Llorente really fading that much? Just because he's 32, I wouldn't automatically say he's "fading". He could theoretically play at a high level until he's 35 for all we know. He scored 15 goals last year for Swans. in 28 starts and 7 sub appearances. That's aboutr 1 goal every other full game no? Which was an improvement on the 2 years prior to that. Plus 1 goal every other full game is a pretty damn good return for someone who will be our back up striker and will be happy to play that role. Sure it's not quite what it was in his prime probably, but it's better than a ton of players in their prime or younger.

    There are absolutely 0 negatives as far as Spurs signing Llorente goes. It's positive in every single way I can think of except resale value. And resale value in this case, doesn't matter at all.

    Comparing him to Parker is fine too, except I think the effect he has on the team itself will just be more similar to the effect VdV had. Also, VdV couldn't sustain his production when he got towards Llorente's age, he dropped off fast. So the back end of VdVs career was really in his late 20s. After that he fell apart. Llorente has all ready surpassed that and proven he can still compete at a high level.

    Now maybe his production will just suddenly drop off. But it hasn't yet and there is no reason to think it will until it actually happens.
  15. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,136
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +2,809 / 73 / -0
    The reason to think his production will drop off in his early 30s is that this is exactly what happens for 95% of players.

    There is almost no chance Llorente has a VDV level or Parker level impact on Spurs. Those players were in our first 11. Do you expect Llorente to be in our first 11? He's going to be limited to 700 or 800 minutes unless Kane goes down with a major injury. And if he doesn't play well, he may not get that. VDV played 5,000 minutes over 2 seasons.

    Resale value always matters. In this case, there will probably be none or close to it, so we're going into it knowing we're taking a 12 million pound bath. That's about as bad as it gets for Spurs. So if he's not a very productive player, this will be a bad purchase.
  16. BrakeYawSelf Well-Known Member

    BrakeYawSelf
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,401 / 235 / -0
    Hey, its a nice theory, but you really can't know that. He has all ready surpassed the age of normal statistical drop and he kept on producing. While the odds may not be in his favor, that doesn't mean he can't and wont beat those odds.

    I would say he very well could have that sort of impact. He doesn't have to be in the starting 11 necessarily. We have a more complete team than we did then IMO and all our starting positions mentioned (Parker and VdV) are superior. Yes, even to VDV and Parker. I don't think either of those guys would walk into our starting 11 right now either.

    So as he was brought in as a backup, he could easily be one of the best backup strikers in the league. And no, resale value doesn't matter in this situation. It definitely doesn't "always" matter. That's a presumption on your part. You might light the odds, but there has been nothing yet to warrant those claims specifically having to do with Llorente.

    A 12 million pound bath is about as bad as it gets for Spurs? Now you are just making baseless claims. Spurs have taken far greater "baths" over the past few years. You seem to have a very negative bias. 12 million for where Spurs are as a club, relative to the current transfer market, is pittance. You just think you are rehashing old and irrelevant theory that has nothing to do with the actual reality of the situation or team.

    Yea, he might not get the minutes VdV got, but I think it will be over 800 easily. VJ isn't getting that time instead. Hey, you are making predictions, maybe you will be right, but maybe you will be wrong. If you can't be open to that possibility or see that possibility, than there is no sense discussing this any further. You've obviously made your mind up and it has nothing to do with anything that has yet happened.

    We won't get anything in return for Llorente in the form of money. And that is absolutely fine if he brings what he theoretically can. But just because you can't fathom it, doesn't mean your claims are correct.

    Sorry, but I believe you are wholly wrong on this issue. I think he has the capability of far surpassing your expectations. He might not of course, but that can be said about every single player.

    I think we are witnessing a systemic conversion at Spurs and I think we should all get used to bringing in players for the here and now if we intend to continue to compete at a top level. That means investing money that will never be directly returned by a player sale. But it also means investing money with an eye on winning, something I am starting to doubt you have any optimism about. I've said nearly all I have to on the issue..

    Not going to try to convince you of something you don;t want to see. Do you even want Spurs to win? To try to get the EPL title? Maybe a CL title? It doesn't sound like it. And no, I don't think you are being realistic, I just think you are having a hard time changing ingrained perspective. But that's neither here nor there I guess.

    Guess we will just have to wait and see.
  17. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,136
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +2,809 / 73 / -0
    1) I don't appreciate the attacks suggesting I don't want Spurs to win.

    2) Your entire post is completely ridiculous.

    3) You're also the guy who said that purchasing Sissoko was a great move and was low risk. Not something I would normally bring up, but after that asshole-ish post, you deserve it.
  18. BrakeYawSelf Well-Known Member

    BrakeYawSelf
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,401 / 235 / -0
    It's not an attack. I'm sorry you don't appreciate it, but that's the way it appears to me.

    You are right about Sissoko and I've owned up to that through various posts. I've also made numerous claims about other players that have worked out extremely well. Actually, I am 100% sure I have been correct more than I have been wrong. If you want to talk about odds. I'm sure if I went through your track record it would be questionable at best. But it's a pointless exercise. I questioned your pessimism, which it is. Which it absolutely sounded like. I don't see how it can be looked at in any other way. I certainly don't see how you can consider that an attack unless it is something you are all ready insecure about. .

    I didn't realize one needed a 100% track record to be able to have insight into transfers.

    I deserve being called out for something I have all ready owned up to? Fine. Now who's being the asshole? Unlike you I am unaffected by shame and public ridicule. And right now I'm laughing my ass off. Later alligator. You're still absolutely wrong.

    As my grandmother used to say, if you can't deal with an asshole why are you talking so much shit?
  19. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,136
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +2,809 / 73 / -0
    Your logic is that anybody who thinks a purchase is a bad one is a pessimist. That's an absurd attitude. Of course Llorente could end up being a good purchase. Sissoko could have ended up being a good purchase. Alli could have ended up being a bad purchase. The future is unknown. But I'm not going to throw my hands up in the air and say "Hallelujah" after every purchase just because it COULD end up being good. I'm weighing the price paid vs what I consider to be the likely impact to the team and eventual sell-on value and making a judgment call about whether I like the purchase or not. I've set up polls for everybody to say how much they like each purchase. I assume that since not loving a purchase is being a pessimist, that you rate them all as 9s?

    I've loved plenty of Spurs' purchases over the years. This isn't one of them. I've laid out the reasons why. Spending our finite money poorly hurts our chances to win the PL. And of course I want us to win the PL. It's what everybody on this forum wants--I would never sink so low as to question the fanhood of somebody who cares enough about Spurs to spend a bunch of free time on a freaking fan forum.

    In my book, you owe me an apology. I'm sure it will not be forthcoming, which is fine. I've seen the way you "discuss" with people who disagree with you before--you speak in absolutes and with perfect confidence in future outcomes which are inherently impossible to know in advance and then tell people they are 100% wrong just as you've done with me. It's unfortunate because I think you have plenty to contribute to this forum...just wish you would do it in a more civil manner.
  20. Mattads1882 Well-Known Member

    Mattads1882
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,226
    Location:
    Dublin , Ireland
    Ratings:
    +1,549 / 33 / -0
    I'm curious what striker you would have signed instead Llorente? Would this striker have a bigger impact than Llorente do you think or is it a sell on thing?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Maslas Well-Known Member

    Maslas
    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,167
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,008 / 27 / -0
    I completely agree.
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Why Do We Bother? Well-Known Member

    Why Do We Bother?
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    4,974
    Location:
    Northern Ireland / USA
    Ratings:
    +3,087 / 124 / -0
    12m quid for a proven striker who will comply with our wage structure, will not throw his toys out of the pram at not starting every game, in this day and age of money madness transfers is an absolute steel....some things to maybe consider....
    Sanchez at 40m is an absolute gamble, then there's the 24m outlay on a right back who could be as clean cut as Gary Liniker or as mad in the head as Balotelli, now that's another gamble is it not? Jesus even splashing 8m on that young kid Foyth could be considered a risk, and he could easily go the way of all the other young kids we loved to buy and then ship out just as quickly as they arrived. And we won't even talk about the money squandered on the Jansens and Sissoko at this club.....also imagine paying 300k a week for Ibrahimovic at 30 something years of age, good god that's insane......
    And the key thing to remember here is, Lorente isn't coming at 32 years of age to lead our attack or be someone we pin all our hopes and dreams on, No way, because we have a 200m pound striker called Harry THE REV RIPSHER!! Kane for that job.
    He is coming simply to be used tactically to save the legs of said 200m pound striker, and if he can keep Sir Harry fresh and keep him firing in those all important goals then Lorente has done his job, and is worth every penny of that 12m, which by the way is still 3m less than it takes to pay Ibrahimovic a years wages......
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. BrakeYawSelf Well-Known Member

    BrakeYawSelf
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,401 / 235 / -0
    No that's not my logic at all. Are you really attempting to spin this as if you were the rational one and as if you were the one that acknowledged the possibility of being wrong? Because you didn't. At all. Until this post I am responding to currently..

    I thought I had a very clear and precise argument. I really just think you generalized a lot. A whole lot. We disagree that's fine. But I am willing to admit when I am wrong. I am willing to admit there is a chance I am not correct given any argument that can't be explained by hard evidence of which there is very little in either of our hypothesis. Both of us were using supposition. There were only really 2 points in that whole debate that I think there is hard evidence for, which I will get to shortly. .

    But when I believe I am right about something, or believe there is a better possibility of a certain outcome I am going to debate and argue and I really don't care about feelings. Nothing was personal. If you took it personally sorry. I didn't think suggesting someone was being pessimistic was a form of attack.

    Now you are just taking my argument and turning it around on me? I believe I was the one that many times said we can't know, its an uncertain outcome. I made every effort to suggest I THINK and I BELIEVE and left it open ended with the possibility that I was incorrect. But for various reasons was willing to think Llorente really could be a statistical anomaly. No where in those earlier conversations did you leave any room for your argument to be wrong. I might be adamant about what I believe, but I am always open to being wrong or in a debate being proven wrong with fact rather than pure conjecture. That's why its mostly opinion in this case, because as I pointed out we were discussing future events. If I ended the conversation with " You are wrong" it was only because you were so insistent that you couldn't be wrong, and that in my book ends any debate.

    Please don't act now like you were the one suggesting that there is the possibility it could go either way. You didn't. Please don't suggest now that I didn't many times suggest that I thought Llorente is an outlier against your argument and I had quite a few very specific reasons why I thought this, because I absolutely did. If you want to talk about certainty, that was your argument, NOT mine.

    My issue in our little debate was that I did not see you do the same at all until now. Basically just taking nearly exactly what I said and repeating it back to me. . You were fairly insistent that your way was the absolute correct one.

    Sink so low? I am sorry. This is going nowhere. I don't believe you actually read half of what I wrote which is fine because I thought I made it pretty clear that NO ONE CAN KNOW. But this is what I think for these specific reasons.

    Personally, I don't take football debating very seriously. Perhaps that's the actual issue. I know, tone is terribly hard to read in text. .

    You've now altered your original argument in an attempt to sound like the rational one. Sorry, that is actually sinking low isn't it? It's really easy to go back and look at what was written. I think it's pretty clear at what point I was actually debating and then at what point I thought it was pointless because of your certainty. .

    Now, there were only 2 points in that entire argument I am absolutely certain of. The first being that 12 million is insignificant relative to what you stated Why? It's simple math. You can take that 12 million and compare it directly to the market and other costs of running the club. Personally, I don't even think this point is worth debating because it is so clear. The 2nd thing I am certain of is that Llorente's resale value is meaningless. Why do I say this is certain? Because its abundantly clear that he was brought in to help the club win NOW. There is no eye towards the long term in this purchase. It is wholly a matter of what he can do for us until he can't play anymore and decides to retire. Now if you don't agree with those 2 facts, then I don't know what to tell you. Both points are easily proven because they can be broken down numerically and I don't think there is really much wiggle room.

    Let's put it another way. If you have $ 1000 is one penny significant? No. Why? Because it is a tiny fraction of the whole. Similarly, 12million is a small fraction relative to current player costs. That is easily shown. As far as resale value? Again, this has to do with fact and numbers. He's 32. If he has one year left of good play in him or 4 years left of good play it doesn't matter. This purchase was made with the knowledge that Spurs will get nothing for this player on the market when his contract runs out. This purchase was made with the specific intent to win now and to add a player that can contribute anywhere from 1 to 4 or 5 years. 4 or 5 years being unlikely, but still possible. A sentiment I am sure I stated. I really don't want to have to rehash all the specifics when anyone can go back and read the original debate.

    I also was waiting for you to point to specifics and to go into detail about your opinion rather than the argument "just because" or as you insinuated, because that's what other players do. That's not arguing about a specific player. Again, that is prediction based on generalization. But Llorente isn't everyone, he's Llorente, an individual who has all ready surpassed age expectations. Something you can clearly see by the numbers, by his production last year. Not every player falls into the average or even the majority. Certain players defy this and I personally think Llorente will be one of those. I explained my reasons for why I think this and also suggested the only way we will know for sure is to wait and see. A sentiment you are only now expressing.

    But outside of those 2 aspects, that I am certain of because of math, everything else I argued was clearly opinion and I thought I made it very apparent why I think it is JUST OPINION.

    Also, no where did I ever shout hallelujah or anything like it. No where did I get excited and blow my wad because "THIS IS THE ULTIMATE PURCHASE! YEA!" No where did I say anything about rating the purchase either. No where did I say he will absolutely be a success. No where did I ever bring up other players or my opinion on them yet you are once again making generalizations based on my comments about one specific player. You are also using faulty logic by assuming my thoughts on other pruchases or players.

    I get how and why you came to the conclusion you did, but I think the basis you used for coming to that conclusion is irrelevant in this instance. Again, because 12 million is relatively insignificant based on ALL other purchases of this year, in this market and relative to the cost of other players. 12 million would have been just as relatively insignificant last season. And once again, part of your summation requires that resale value be factored in. Well, I reject that premise at its foundation because it's abundantly clear that resale had nothing to do with this purchase. If you buy something that you intend to keep until it dies or breaks, what significance does its future value have? If you buy a car that you intend to run into the ground, the blue book price then becomes inconsequential.

    I don't see how the purchase of Llorente, in those terms, can be viewed rationally in any other way.

    Now if you want to talk about production, his minutes , his importance to the team, how many years of quality football he has left or any other factor in the entire debate, aside from those above 2, then I think I made it abundantly clear that these are all open to interpretation. Again, why I reject the premise of your argument, because it depends on KNOWING said production. Which again we can't know, a point I mentioned numerous times, that you have finally gotten around to saying yourself.

    Everyone has something to offer the forum. Your idea of civil is vastly different from mine. In civil discourse you generally acknowledge the possibility of being wrong before having to correct yourself in order to prove a point about the person you are debating. In civil discourse observations aren't viewed as attacks. In civil discourse and in civil debates the goal is to prove your hypothesis by showing your work. Not to twist what occurred in order to appear more rational than you did at the actual time of the debate. Because if you did not come back here and repeat many of the things that I originally said, you would have no basis for the claims you now make.

    Do I owe you an apology because I did something wrong? Or do I owe you an apology because of your subjective interpretation of the events?
    The only apology I feel I owe is that I am sorry you were offended by an observation that your particular perspective on a specific player seemed pessimistic to me because I find the basis of your argument to be faulty. Thus, the negative assertions made about the player in question and the future of said player are based on what I would consider an irrelevant foundation. That lead me to an assumption of pessimism because I don't believe that perspective was arrived at in a logical and rational way. If you aren't a pessimist, you really don't have to prove it to me. Nor do I think you have to prove it to anyone else. But ultimately, we were both making assumptions, one of success and one of failure.

    Now can we end this ? It's not going anywhere and I don't appreciate the attempt to spin what actually occurred in order to prove some moral and civil point that has absolutely nothing to do with the original argument.

    At least own your original argument. Because the current post I am replying to is a significantly different argument that you had previously made. And if this current statement is actually what you intended to say in the first place then that is absolutely fine. But let's not pretend it was clear or even significantly present in your earlier statements.

    I have nothing against you personally, even after all this. It really is just a debate about football. Perhaps it got heated, but that isn't automatically a negative. Especially if you can stand behind your argument. Especially because I have full confidence in my argument. Perhaps you do as well. That doesn't mean we have to agree at all.

    There are other arguments where we absolutely do agree. I don't see why this one should matter more than those. And you don't have to like me in order for us to debate. Unless we are going to grab some beer one day and hang out, there is no need for us to debate anything other than issues involving Spurs and football. Which we can still do even though I am an asshole. And yea, I am an asshole. I don't really see that as a negative. Let's just cut the pretense. It's wholly unnecessary.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  24. BrakeYawSelf Well-Known Member

    BrakeYawSelf
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,401 / 235 / -0
    Thank you. I know we have disagreed about other issues. I am glad we can do both.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Del Boy N17 Active Member

    Del Boy N17
    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    880
    Ratings:
    +600 / 16 / -0
    With Janssen moving to Turkey, signing Llorente makes complete sense, & he's an upgrade on Janssen even at 32, hopefully he gets a cameo tomorrow & wraps the game up with a 87th minute bullet header !!!
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    5,136
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +2,809 / 73 / -0
    Janssen is moving to Turkey because we signed Llorente not the other way around.
  27. Dancubus Well-Known Member

    Dancubus
    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Messages:
    5,359
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +2,158 / 16 / -0
    Jesus. Argue much?

    A not too much, a much too much.
    • Funny Funny x 1
  28. Why Do We Bother? Well-Known Member

    Why Do We Bother?
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    4,974
    Location:
    Northern Ireland / USA
    Ratings:
    +3,087 / 124 / -0
    Just read there that Llorente made his senior debut for Bilbao back in 2005, and the man marking him that day?....a certain 32 year old called Pochettino.....small world:thumb:

    PS.....Pochettino won that battle!!
    • Like Like x 2
  29. BrakeYawSelf Well-Known Member

    BrakeYawSelf
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,489
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1,401 / 235 / -0
    There have been a run of articles over the past few days saying a lot of positive things about Llorente coming in to the clubhouse.

    Tottenham: Llorente has made a huge impact already - Pochettino - ClubCall

    Mauricio Pochettino hoping to utilise Fernando Llorente's high-end experience to improve Tottenham mentality | The Independent

    Lloris Delighted By Llorente Arrival - SpursWeb - Tottenham Hotspur News

    These are exactly the positives I expected/hoped for when we signed Llorente. I am very happy to hear that's how it is working out so far. These are important aspects of a winning team.
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  30. pzabby Well-Known Member

    pzabby
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,373
    Location:
    canada
    Ratings:
    +536 / 10 / -0
    A lot of times, signing someone with high end experience but at the tail end of their career (who has a good mentality, leadership qualities, etc) is as much for their effect on the locker room/growth of yungins as it is for their playing ability. We've seen this with Parker, and now again with Llorente (who arguably has had more high level experience). A great signing.

    Now time to sign a young promising striker (or bring one up) in January to learn under Llorente/Kane as a third stringer.
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page