[OMT] Manchester United at Old Trafford [PL] Mon 27th Aug 2018 20:00 BST

Discussion in 'Match Day Chat' started by pistols_at_dawn, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. pistols_at_dawn Well-Known Member

    pistols_at_dawn
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    Here we go, lads and lasses! Our first true test of the season. Here's a starting XI I'd like to see:

    Lloris
    Trips - Toby - Vert - Davies
    Dier - Lamela
    Dele - Eriksen - Moura
    Kane

    How about a convincing 3-1 win to Spurs? I'll take it!

    COYS
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  2. Why Do We Bother? Well-Known Member

    Why Do We Bother?
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    Any kind of victory against this lot I will gladly accept.....
    Jose is under the spotlight a little, and he will either try and shut up shop completely or go all gun ho....we must take the chance when it presents itself, won’t get away with the misses we had against Fulham in this game...1-0 Spurs
  3. Dancubus Well-Known Member

    Dancubus
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    Games like this, always remind me of how far we've come as a team. I used to be so pessimistic before watching us play teams like this, now I feel like we can beat anyone.

    I can see them shutting up and playing us on the break, so we're going to have to be vigilant and the back. I don't want to see us getting done like we did at Old Trafford last season.
  4. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
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    I’m for a back 3 in this game. We’ll see what Poch decides.

    And if we’re being choosy about when to start Dembele, surely this is one of those matches?
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  5. AJ201 Well-Known Member

    AJ201
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    Generally Dembele should be playing against the better teams but Pogba is the one midfielder in the league that can out muscle him, it generally doesn't go well for Dembele against Pogba.
  6. ehh56 Well-Known Member

    ehh56
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    I believe I remember Dembele having a poor showing against France in the World Cup.
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  7. AJ201 Well-Known Member

    AJ201
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    He was poor in the semi final against Utd as well, it might just be a coincidence of course.
  8. ehh56 Well-Known Member

    ehh56
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    Yeah, and I wouldn't let Dembele's good showing late in the two last games convince that he is good as new. His best role this year might be coming off the bench and delivering 30 minutes of shutdown play. If he can do that consistently it will be more than enough.
  9. AlabamaSpur Well-Known Member

    AlabamaSpur
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    That line up with Lamela in the holding role is a good one. I feel like Poch will go with a back 3 though. Not saying I like it, I just think thats what he will do
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  10. PhildoVT Active Member

    PhildoVT
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    But if Pogba can outmuscle Dembele, imagine what he would do to any of our other options. Wanyama still isnt healthy, right?


    I like the idea of Lamela playing a more central role, but I'm not so sure about playing him that deep. Giving him a CM role in a 4-3-3 could definitely be interesting.
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  11. Dan Northern Spurs Member

    Dan Northern Spurs
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    We gotta be careful if Bigbird Fellaini gets subbed on, and we concede a free kick near the box. Other than that, Im pretty optimistic with coming away with something.
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  12. Mattads1882 Well-Known Member

    Mattads1882
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    Not really since our other CMs don't try to dribble past people so they would just play around Pogba rather than duel him.
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  13. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
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    If we didn’t sell Dembele for 20 million pounds so we could use him only as a sub for a year and then lose him for nothing, I won’t be happy.
  14. ehh56 Well-Known Member

    ehh56
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    Sell Dembele, buy Kovacic. That was the ticket. We're going to, in effect, pay 20 mil for 40 X 30 minutes total out of Dembele. That's 16,666 pounds per minute. Plus salary. Ouch. I'm not sure what happened but that's insane. But over-playing him will probably just mean that he'll end up in rehab, or be limping around the pitch doing nothing but harm.
  15. Why Do We Bother? Well-Known Member

    Why Do We Bother?
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    It’s so not Levy is it?...saying that, the window to sell is still open so you never know...There was defiantly a brain fart or two happened this summer, something’s up with the clubs backroom, but what?
  16. Why Do We Bother? Well-Known Member

    Why Do We Bother?
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  17. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
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    I think Dembele is going to be asked to start some games. Whether that works out or not I don’t know. But I don’t think our other CM options are going to be good enough to not tempt Poch to get more than 1200 minutes out of Dembele.
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  18. spursman18 Super Moderators

    spursman18
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    We're going to balance Dembele's minutes, much like we did last season.

    There are particular games where he needs to start, and this is one of them. There are other games where he doesnt necessarily have to start (like Newcastle) and come off the bench for the last 30 minutes and take the sting out of the game, which he did.
  19. ehh56 Well-Known Member

    ehh56
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    You are probably right. But I think it would be unwise. Let's hope Winks can return full strength, as unlikely as that seems right now.
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  20. ehh56 Well-Known Member

    ehh56
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    I think Dembele vetoed it.
  21. ehh56 Well-Known Member

    ehh56
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    If there are some games he needs to start then there will need to be other games where he doesn't play at all. My guess is that he has a pretty small number of minutes that he can provide and play truly effectively.
  22. spursman18 Super Moderators

    spursman18
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    bit of a stretch, but goes into the balancing of his fitness/overall feeling of himself.

    we also have high quality/high tech data that can show the staff just how much he's struggling or above where he was at certain points last season
  23. Why Do We Bother? Well-Known Member

    Why Do We Bother?
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    And I’m glad he did, I like having the moose around the place.....the other argument is we couldn’t get a couple of new players in because the moose wouldn’t leave, so there’s 15/20m down the pisser right away, along with them other clowns who we can’t give away for free it seems, and we always have to sell before we can buy.....the moose needs a big season now!!
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  24. teedee Well-Known Member

    teedee
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    I fail to see the need to sell Dembele until at least next summer.
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  25. AJ201 Well-Known Member

    AJ201
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    Dembele relies on his strength much more than other players though, Wanyama is still not in training as far as I know and yeah we're short of options with Winks not having played in forever.

    The Dembele vs Pogba thing may be a complete red herring as it's such a small sample size but he just doesn't seem to play well against Pogba he may still be our best option though.
  26. FLYank Active Member

    FLYank
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    Because his contract ends next summer. We wanted to give him a 1 year extension (Which I support) but he refused. He won't sign a new contract without his last big payday, which Levy won't give him. Either we sell him in January, give him the contract he wants, or let him walk on a free next summer.

    I understand Inter offered $20M and we said yes, but Dembele said no.
  27. FLYank Active Member

    FLYank
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    In baseball there is what is called a "closer." That is a pitcher who is only able to pitch about 2 innings, but could strike God himself out in those 2 innings. They sit on the bench and wait until the later stages of the game and get sent out to secure the win. Mariano Rivera made about $15M a year closing for the Yankees, which is about the same amount Derek Jeter made. In baseball a good closer is worth his weight in gold. In games like Newcastle Dembele is our closer, put out to guarantee the 3 points vs a late collapse and having to settle for 1. How much money is that 2 points worth? At the end of the season when we are trying to guarantee top 4 every point counts.
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  28. Mattads1882 Well-Known Member

    Mattads1882
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    I don't know anything about baseball. Why would someone only be able to pitch 2 innings? Injury?
  29. AlabamaSpur Well-Known Member

    AlabamaSpur
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    Because he's a specialist who comes in and get the last 3-6 outs
  30. bfwolf Well-Known Member

    bfwolf
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    The closer is the most overrated position in baseball, and probably the least valuable outside of a lightly used pinch hitter. It falls into the logic trap that the last inning is more valuable than the previous one (they're all equal, just like all minutes of a football game are equal). Moneyball had a section about this--how Billy Beane would put some no-name reliever in the closer role, let him rack up a bunch of saves (a made up statistic about how many games a pitcher came into at the end and preserved their team's lead), and then trade him for way more than he was worth. The reality is that a pitcher who only pitches 70 innings is worth way less than one pitching 200.

    This article from all the way back in 2011 notes that most baseball franchises absorbed Oakland's recognition that closers are way overrated and stopped paying their closers big money. The Economics of Moneyball «

    "Another Billy Beane Moneyball idea, discussed in the book, is that closers are overrated and overpaid. These days, though, his insight has been absorbed by most teams. For example, in the just-concluded World Series, the Rangers closer (Neftali Feliz) and the Cards closer (Jason Motte) had a combined salary of less than $1 million!

    This year, the Yankees’ Mariano Rivera was ranked fifth in total saves with 44. At a salary of $14.9 million, that works out to be a hefty $338,600 per save. The four closers ranked ahead of him averaged 46.5 saves and a salary of $2.9 million, or $63,771 per save — quite the bargain.

    The Red Sox closer, Jonathan Papelbon, delivered 31 saves on a $12 million salary ($387,000 per), while the aforementioned Mr. Feliz had 32 saves on $457,000, or $14,281 per save. Feliz was more than 20 times as cost-effective by this measure.

    As of 2011, there are only three other closers with salaries greater than $10,000,000 (Cordero, Rodriguez, and Nathan). Ten of the top 20 closers in terms of saves made less than $2.5 million (the major league average player salary is around $3.2 million), and six of these 10 made less than $500,000.

    So while the money-machine Yanks and Sox overpay for their closers and get away with it, most teams have learned this Moneyball lesson and saved some bucks."
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