The High Line - Suicidal or Masterclass in the making?

Discussion in 'Players Lounge' started by Musashi, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. Musashi Well-Known Member

    Musashi
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    Didn't catch the LA Galaxy game but from what I saw against Liverpool, I'm actually quite encouraged by it. At the moment we just don't have the personnel and the familiarity to pull it off though. What are everyone's thoughts?
  2. boo Staff Member

    boo
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    I reckon we're screwed. If this is our tactic that is going to be implemented, we're going to ship buckets of goals and Villas-Boas will be out by Christmas : (
    boo,
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  3. Musashi Well-Known Member

    Musashi
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    We are gonna ship bucketloads of goals no doubt but if we press properly, we'll force our opponents to make even more mistakes, and with the right players up front, we'll score even more bucketloads ourselves. We got ourselves a manager who is on the extreme end of the spectrum in terms of attacking play, or would you rather we get this guy?

    [​IMG]

    Nice avy btw, [Mention]boo[/Mention]
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012
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  4. Lilywhite74 Moderator

    Lilywhite74
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    I think, and I've read others on here who think this too, that getting Sandro/Parker in the lineup will make a big difference. Especially against LA Galaxy, Livermore struggled to track runners from deep, and it's usually that secondary run that catches you flat when playing a high line. In short, for me, the jury's out. I've watched both the friendlies over here, and while we've looked dodgy at times in defense, it's hard to believe we wouldn't look that way whether we were focusing on holding a high line or not, because 1) Vert (and really Bassong) haven't played with the others; and 2) it's preseason, and even our settled players are out of sync.
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  5. Chorazin Well-Known Member

    Chorazin
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    The Liverpool game was definitely an improvement over the LA galaxy game for the high line, although im not sure what the deal is with Bassong as a LB, it's night and day having BAE in that position compared to Bassong.
  6. Lilywhite74 Moderator

    Lilywhite74
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    I'm hoping it's only because he's trying not to wear them out in the conditions, and with Rose being at the Olympics, needs Bassong to step in. You're right, he's not cut out to play there.
  7. Batman i love catnip

    Batman
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    but if thats the case why not just shove jan over there, hes a much better LB than bassong.
    Walker---Kaboul---Dawson---Vertonghen
    thats plenty solid
    especially if Dawson is going to be captain?
  8. deejbah Well-Known Member

    deejbah
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    Like [MENTION=1798]stroud_jm[/MENTION] said are missing three of our best central midfielders, which I think will make a big difference even (when) if Luka goes, we should still pick up another player who is going to be better at distributing and positioning themselves than any of the options we have used in the games so far. Also, a high line with 4-2-3-1 and tired players is always to look quite different than it will with rested players. Players will press harder, timing will improve with more familiarity and defenders will recover better even when teams do get through. Think we can start to feel nervous if it really looks bad against Valencia.
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  9. donnie New Member

    donnie
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    Well we didn't concede which is a good thing. We had a lot of our first team players out. If we have our best players out there it'll work i reckon.

    Walker-Kaboul-Vertonghen--BAE
    ---------Sandro-------Parker---------

    With Parker and Sandro running the show in the DM roles, it'll be a lot harder to make a good pass through our high line with those two constantly putting on pressure
  10. SuperPokeychenko Active Member

    SuperPokeychenko
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    Jury's still out for me at this stage..
    I just hope if it looks like it's not gonna work AVB doesn't make the same mistakes he made at Chelski and sticks to it regardless..
    As we saw last season the way we played and the style we played worked and we played some amazing football that was just beautiful.
    It's good to experiment and it should work with the players we have but at the same time if it's not broke don't fix it
  11. thfcire Unit and river the human centipede Super Moderators

    thfcire
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    I think in the prem it's a very risky Tatic but could work inthe right system, is it only methat thinksit would work better with 3 at the back??(kaboom daws jan) benny and walker pushed on
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  12. Glenjamin Well-Known Member

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    I'm not liking it. Didnt like the look of it at chelsea and not liking it so far with us. I honestly don't see the need. One of the main reasons to play a high line is to catch the other team offside and so far i've seen about 10 one on one onside opportunities. It scares me. I can understand the plan. Press high up the pitch etc to win the ball but against stoke they will hoof it over the top to run onto and against the likes of man city they will play it through us and run onto it. Fair enough it worked for porto but at the end of the day falcao and hulk put shed loads in the other net. We dont really have that.. yet! I think it calls for the defense and defensive mid to be almost to organised. A single lapse in concentration in a game will result in a goal. I like avb and like the way he is shaping things up so far with regards to training, rotation plans etc but i think this high line business needs to stop. Kaboul and dawson just arent smart enough to make it work and sandro is to rash. We will give away free kicks like nobodys business with sandro tracking players in a high line. Reckon he'll see red a few times to.
  13. ctw01 Well-Known Member

    ctw01
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    This system is the reason the chavs failed with Andre, their defence was all over the place because the players couldnt cope with it, it is imperative to have players who fit a system instead of forcing them to play in it, and just a point about yesterdays game, Liverpool played a retention system with no attacking options, so we were never seriously tested defensively, I fear what might happen when we play against a more attacking side.
  14. PunchInTheNutz New Member

    PunchInTheNutz
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    I was under the impressions that the reason we chose AVB was because he made reassurances about the mistakes he made at Chelsea and that he did not intend to repeat them. On the evidence of the last two games we have a good deal of work to do.

    A high defense is only good against certain teams so there should be a plan B. I seriously hope there is a plan B
  15. rossdfc Well-Known Member

    rossdfc
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    This, and also teams are probably going to score so many goals against the run of play against us. All they have to do is get their defenders to constantly attempt long balls over our defense and chances are, one of them is going to work.
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  16. ArabSpur New Member

    ArabSpur
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    Here is my problem with the high line (and ultimately AVB choice if he decides to stick to this plan).
    When playing high and squeeze opponents into their half this means very crowded areas, less and less space.
    Now, one of our strength, if not the biggest, when we attack teams is our speed on the wings. Bale and Lennon are best when running in spaces, when teams converge on them they mostly struggle.
    This is why a high line cannot be our main strategy because IMO it does not fit the type of personnel we have.

    We seem to be deep in the CD area, and when we let central defenders set back and not go that high up that helps create spaces by giving our midfield more space to roam and eventually pulling teams our of their area and letting our speed on the wings exploit them.

    If AVB is the genius he is said to be he should show his skills of adaptability. Managers keeps moving around and every time they take on teams they are given different type of personnel. The great ones are the best at adapting their strategies to the strengths of their squads. That's why I admire such manager like Hitzfeld, Del Bosque, Hiddink, Advocaat, even Otto Rehhagel. No matter where you put them, they know how to make it work to the strengths of the players they have.

    Will AVB show such a thing? I hope so, otherwise it's gonna be Ramos all over again with the false dawn.

    8)
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012
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  17. PunchInTheNutz New Member

    PunchInTheNutz
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    This is what scares me the most. It's not just letting in a few extra goals here and there it's our dodgy team morale that can make it a hundred times worse. How many times have we gone ahead and looked in good spirits and then our opponents get one back against the run of play and our heads drop and all of a sudden we have no confidence at all. The classic example was when the scum beat us 5-2. We were two in front and threw it away because Sagna scored five minutes before half time. Then Van Persie equalized a couple minutes later and we might as well not have come out for the second half.

    Us fan's know our team morale better than AVB does for obvious reasons. He doesn't quite know the psychology of how our players work together and won't spot the times when we can be vulnerable unless someone like Sherwood can have a word in his ear or something.

    I don't mind us playing a high line when the time and the circumstances are right but certainly not every game because we are gonna get punished.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012
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  18. coys320 Well-Known Member

    coys320
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    Worried to say the least. I know it's pre-season and all that, with a few players out etc etc, but the shape just for me leaves 2 huge channels that the opposition can jump the ball into which fast wingers can just exploit all day long. Unless we have the right players (which I do not think we do at the moment) then we need to revert to a more conservative line of defence.
  19. Havocc Well-Known Member

    Havocc
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    I am sure if it doesn't work in the prem, then AVB will change it....or perhaps it's only for certain games.
  20. TreyNerd Well-Known Member

    TreyNerd
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    Instantly you can see that we play down the middle a lot more, and seem much more comfortable in the opposing areas. Before, we would get to the penalty box and wouldn't be able to find any openings nor know what to do with the ball, and simply make a cross because we had no more options.

    The high line is aggressive as hell, I like it. It suits spurs. Our defence can't get caught daydreaming though or we will be in trouble.

    We are still practising. You can't just scrap the idea because that's the easy way out
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  21. rudi New Member

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    I'm mostly concerned that AvB might turn out to be an idealist rather than a pragmatist. Surely he must have noticed by now that the Prem is far more used to playing the ball over the top than in Portugal? I can see what he's trying to achieve, but all systems need tinkering to fit the prevailing conditions.

    Ramos, for instance, had a fine brain for Spanish and European football but refused to bend even a little to adapt to the Prem's somewhat more robust approach to measured passing.

    As ire suggests further up the thread, I could see it working better with three at the back; almost a sweeper system.

    Only time will tell, I guess.
    rudi,
  22. Harry Hotspur Banned !

    Harry Hotspur
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    I really dont like the idea of playing a high line with BAE in it. He switches off at the best of times, relying on him to play an offside trap and then combine that with having Daws in the middle and you are asking for trouble, by the time Benny has realised he has made a mistake and the time Daws has turned the hull around and got moving the player is going to be one-on-one with a 41 year old who is terrified of leaving his line. Truly the stuff of nightmares. Either the tactic or AVB to be gone by 2013.
  23. corroded Well-Known Member

    corroded
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    Vertonghen looks like he's quick... Benny, Walker and Kaboom are no slouches.

    We've seen some usual team setups coming out at the moment. No Parker, No Sando, No Modric (though that might be something we deal with), No Proper Striker.

    I think our main defensive qualities will show through, even if we play a high line. We've just not seen the full team yet.

    I don't think Dawson fits into the quick defence though, he's too slow. Benny is much less accident prone than he used to be.

    In fact the only thing that worries me is that we weren't that incisive when pressing last year, and were often better on the break... we seem to be playing into our weakness in that regard.
  24. Harry Hotspur Banned !

    Harry Hotspur
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    I think being the underdog and playing on the counter mainly stemmed from the last guy in charge who spent most of his life as a loser. Hopefully that will change now.
  25. fuego New Member

    fuego
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    Agree completely. What [MENTION=5783]TreyNerd[/MENTION] says here is key for me. We got to give this a real chance and back it all the way, at least until Christmas when we will be able to deliver more informed judgements. It's just crazy to be making judgements this early, especially on pre-season stuff with a new manager in the hot seat. Leave that sort of thing to the whinging, whining, bitter Chelski scum, who are just waiting for AVB to fail.

    There is one good thing to be said. Teams are not immediately going to know how to deal with us, like they did at the backend of last season and I'm hoping AVB is astute enough to realise that he'll need to change things around to keep the opposition on the backfoot.
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  26. P UNIT Tha Mac Daddy Pimp Mo Fo Super Moderators

    P UNIT
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    If this it our only tactic we need to go shopping again I'm afraid.

    Vert isn't quick enough. Kaboom isn't quick enough. Daws isn't quick enough.

    We need a lightning quick cb to get us out of the shit when BAE and Walker leave us in the shit and get caught out of position or sleeping deep.

    I agree it can be used, but only against certain teams/forwards.
  27. StripiestPilot Well-Known Member

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    I think AVB moved the line back against Liverpool (compared to what it was against Galaxy) and it looked a lot better. After what happened at Chelsea he isn't going to use it if it doesn't work.
  28. terraloon Active Member

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    In reality thats why this system failed at Chelsea their centre backs werent quick enough and their natural instints were to drop further back which they couldnt do so in pushing forward they were outside their comfort zone and had to go against years of caoching. A simple ball behind them or a forward breaking from through midfield meant they were on the central defenders before they had time to take a better defensive line or position.
    Will it work at Spurs? I am not sure at all.
  29. TehLondoner New Member

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    Our best players are jan vertonghen and kaboul and the problem is that both are ball playig defenders eager to get forward. None of them are stopper cbs.
  30. Winus Active Member

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    And that's the most important part I think. Rigidness, stubborness, that's what killed him at Chelsea. I do think he's giving everything and everyone a try; just hope he has it all figured it out come matchday one.

    Either way, it's too soon to tell, since we're watching a mixed-up team in preseason. If anything, we need to give it time. I do think we looked way better defensively against Liverpool. Then again, they were really playing the ball in the ground, as opposed to Galaxy, in which we were exposed quite a few times.

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