VdV and Defoe in the same team

Discussion in 'Team Formation' started by NI Yiddo, Oct 22, 2011.

  1. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    Arry has been quoted a few times saying it's either a choice of Defoe or Van der Vaart but why choose one or t'other when we could have both in their favourite positions? Assuming everyone is fit:

    ------------Brad
    ------- King -- Gallas --
    Walker ------------------ Bale
    -----------Sandro
    ------Parker ---- Modric
    -------------VdV
    ------Defoe ----- Adebayor

    Two attacking wing-backs, three midfielders that can tack back and tackle and three forwards with more space to work in.

    I think there is enough cover to stamp out any doubling up on our full backs, while at the same time enough width to allow them to get forward and play balls down the channels. Furthermore the technical ability of that team means we're unlikely to be on the back-foot and always have Sandro to put in a tackle when the other team counter.
  2. Musashi Well-Known Member

    Musashi
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    2,836
    Location:
    Singapore
    Ratings:
    +997 / 0 / -0
    Then according to your formation, it becomes a choice between Bale and BAE.
  3. spursman18 Moderator

    spursman18
    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    28,150
    Location:
    Virginia
    Ratings:
    +11,549 / 3 / -0
    Your formation is more or less a 4 3 3, which we wont see with Harry in charge. Also, I think VDV needs as much space as possible coming from a deep position to play off Adebayor and I can see JD getting in his way and vice versa for them to be effective.

    I like the idea but I dont expect to see it played.
  4. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    Possibly, they could both do with competition... I think Bale is better attacking from deep and BAE is much better with Bale in front of him so I've emitted Benny for now. Lennon would also be benched for this formation as Walker/Parker/Defoe can do his job together more effectively.
  5. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    Yeah, I never expect Harry to implement it due to the versatility, but it annoys me when he sees it as a problem, as other managers may see it as an experimental opportunity. I think JD is more capable of hugging the touchline and tracking back, going wide and covering the right wing position than VdV. He would assume more of a Walcott/Henry flanker role [RAM/RW/RF/RS] (sorry for the ars*nal/rugby/fifa reference). If I presented it to Redknapp I'd argue it was just a diamond 4-4-2... can also be viewed as a 3-5-2 though when the full backs are ahead of Sandro and he ends up in a sort of sweeper role.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2011
  6. spursman18 Moderator

    spursman18
    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    28,150
    Location:
    Virginia
    Ratings:
    +11,549 / 3 / -0
    I'm not too sure about Defoe over VDV on the wing (I'd rather have neither playing there), but he's most effective for me at least playing on the last defenders shoulder. Dragging him out wide wouldnt do a great deal of good, as him playing off a striker partner (which is what his game revolves around). If he comes out wide and cuts inside he'd again be taking VDV's space away from him. There's no doubt he does well to put a shift in to track back and defend but thats not what I really want from a forward throughout the duration of a game. Sure, he needs to do it when called upon but having him in a wide position will ask him to do this too often for my liking and would take him out of the game in terms of his finishing ability and how effective he could be for a striker like Adebayor.

    If he was played as a wide forward in a front 3 then I could see it working out for him, because he wouldnt have to track back as often and he would be able to cut into the middle without having a trailing player in VDV to worry about his space being taken away. But, I'd much rather have VDV in our team behind a lone strike than Defoe (in a 4 4 2) if it's going to enable us to play with 2 out and out wingers which I like to see when we play.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2011
  7. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    Well there is nothing, hypothetically, to stop Lennon challenging the place of Defoe or Bale challenging the place of Adebayor for the RF/LF position assuming VdV's place is divine. I just think if Rafa and Defoe's places were equal in the team then VdV would learn to track back quickly as like you say, Tottenham work better with wingers and could easily adapt a 4-3-3 without either of them.

    eg:

    ------------Brad
    ------- King -- Gallas --
    Walker ------------------ BAE
    -----------Sandro
    ------Parker ---- Modric
    --Lennon --------------Bale
    ---------- Adebayor

    Now Lennon has nicked Defoe's place, Bale has nicked Adebayors but Ade has also nicked Rafas, if that makes any sense :001_302:

    Over-thought I know, but it's just rough working out to prove the equation "VdV + Defoe = No" wrong... or more proving "VdV == Defoe" right.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2011
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Luke0405 New Member

    Luke0405
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2009
    Messages:
    3,201
    Location:
    Basingstoke,England
    Ratings:
    +543 / 0 / -0
    I wouldn't want to see Bennie lose his place.
  9. spursman18 Moderator

    spursman18
    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    28,150
    Location:
    Virginia
    Ratings:
    +11,549 / 3 / -0
    I'm discussing this topic in two different threads and my brain is fried because of it!!!!

    The one thing I will say about your formation is that a lone striker benefits playing off a player like VDV because of his ability to finish and create off/for that striker. VDV's ability to finish is better than both Lennon and Bale to some extent so I just dont see how leaving VDV out of our team is going to benefit us.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2011
  10. Musashi Well-Known Member

    Musashi
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    2,836
    Location:
    Singapore
    Ratings:
    +997 / 0 / -0
    It's not 4-3-3. This is 4-4-2 with a closed diamond midfield. Chelsea used it a lot in the past when they have too many CMs and no wingers.
  11. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    Well the point is the likes of Bale, Lennon, Kranjcar, Jermain have never been given the same opportunity to play VdV's preferred role so I think it's hard to judge that. Similarly, VdV has never been given the oppertunity in a midfield of 5 to track back with so this would also be an option:

    ------------Brad
    ------- King -- Gallas --
    Walker ------------------ Bale/BAE
    -----------Sandro
    ------Parker ---- Modric
    --Defoe --------------- VdV
    ---------- Adebayor

    It's just the first formation with VdV on the left... he's needed to track back, but Defoe would also be doing his fair share of tracking on the other side so the role is split equally. They can alternate wings, be replaced for wingers etc.
  12. spursman18 Moderator

    spursman18
    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    28,150
    Location:
    Virginia
    Ratings:
    +11,549 / 3 / -0
    9 times out of 10 VDV's role to me in that formation in the post I quoted would most likely to be higher up the pitch and not track back very much given who is playing behind him. Looking at it again, its not a 4 3 3 but more of a 4 3 1 2.

    But, thats all for me tonight I'm drained of all the talk about formation/JD/VDV who is better, who should play......I just want goals and 3 points from anyone whenever we play.
  13. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    Bennie doesn't have to lose his place assuming Bale doesn't do as good a job at left back or does a better job as a forward. Then it'll become a choice of Bale/VdV for example or BAE/Defoe... essentially every position on the team has competition depending on the opponent and form of the players.
  14. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    I'll take that as a concession then :y15:

    Honestly, I would've given up the formation talk ages ago as it's nearly 4am here and I have footy trials first thing tomorrow but my house-mate is on the phone in the room next to me and I kept him up the night before so no way am I getting any decent sleep tonight!

    To be continued... :001_005:
  15. US_Spurs_Fan Well-Known Member

    US_Spurs_Fan
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,698
    Location:
    Cincinnati, U.S.A
    Ratings:
    +431 / 0 / -0
    With Defo, VDV, and Adebayor all in the same lineup we'd probably concede 5 goals. So they had better score 6.
  16. Dancubus Well-Known Member

    Dancubus
    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +1,458 / 5 / -0
    There's no point in speculating about formations that are simply not going to happen. It's going to be the same 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 until Harry's gone.

    They all look good on paper, but the only place those formations are going to happen is in Football Manager 2012.

    I'm not having digs at people who make formation suggestions. I'm more frustrated that Harry hasn't experimented more throughout his time here.
  17. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    Haha was going to point out we are in the team formation speculation forum until your last line. I agree regarding Harry, however, I was talking to a Portsmouth fan today who said during their promotion season back in 2002/03 Redknapp played a 5-3-2 and it worked incredibly well for their full-backs until they stopped going past people in the Premiership and he reverted back to 4-4-2.

    I think we have the quality in our side to dominate possession now, particularly at home against weaker opposition... Spurs have always been about scoring more than the other side. Attack is our best form of defence and it's getting harder to attack teams playing for a 0-0 against us.
  18. Dancubus Well-Known Member

    Dancubus
    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +1,458 / 5 / -0
    I'll be honest, I didn't even know we had a section, and paid no attention to what section this is in. So either way, my post was pretty silly lol.
    • Like Like x 1
  19. StPaulSpur Well-Known Member

    StPaulSpur
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,691
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE, USA
    Ratings:
    +1,690 / 0 / -0
    A few thoughts:

    1) I don't like taking BAE out of the lineup. He's our best ball-player on the back line so when you remove him, you often remove that key first pass that begins our attacking moves. I also wonder if Bale would be as effective without BAE behind him.
    2) Not sure on Modric on the left side of the diamond either. Really haven't liked what I've seen with him in a wide role these past few games. Needs to be central for me.
    3) I'm also concerned about VDV and Defoe fighting for space in this formation. I think all three of them up top could be a nightmare for both Defoe and Rafa.

    Like others have said, I don't think this'll happen, but here's another thought. It's the same basic idea as some of the great Milan teams of the 90s:
    Friedel
    Walker, King, Kaboul, Bale/BAE
    Sandro, Huddlestone, Parker,
    VDV, Modric
    Adebayor

    The old Christmas Tree (4-3-2-1). Milan did this with Pirlo in the deep-lying playmaker role, flanked by Ambrosini and Gattuso. With those two on either side, Pirlo had minimal defensive responsibilities. And playing in such a deep role, he had plenty of opportunities to hit that deadly through ball to release a scorer. In front of Pirlo, they used Seedorf and Kaka playing behind a striker, both in advanced playmaking roles. But the key to this formation in this era is universality. Pirlo could move up if needed, Seedorf could drop back. You don't need all five players to be versatile, but you do need a couple of them to be. For us, I think it's a little awkward b/c Modric is the most natural deep-lying playmaker we have but any combo of VDV/Defoe, VDV/Kranjcar, Kranjcar/Defoe, VDV/GDS, etc. would be disastrous because neither of them would play any defense. So I moved Modric forward and dropped Hudd into the playmaker role. He's not anywhere near Luka's quality in terms of dribbling and ball control - can't be really because of his body type - but he's a fantastic passer (a quality that I think we sometimes forget) and it'd be interesting seeing how he did in that role. Flank him with Parker and Sandro, both of whom can destroy but also will get forward from time to time. Then have Modric and VDV in front playing off Adebayor. Obv. we'll never try such a formation in match because I think most managers would want Bale/BAE out wide plus this formation leaves no room for Lennon or Defoe. But it's def. a fun experimental shape.
  20. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0

    Interesting thoughts... However, I think Modric really doesn't need pushed forward when alongside Sandro and Parker. Luka's game has improved greatly with Parker beside him as like you said it enables him push forward from deep. I wouldn't consider Modric or Parker defensive midfielders, but they are box-to-box midfielders and appreciate how to cover eachother. Worst case scenario is that Luka does go forward and a full back is out of place as well... One of Parker/Sandro can cover the full back role and the other can put in a tackle/foul to break it down.

    But I think Defoe, Adebayor, and even VdV would learn how to track back pretty quickly and effectively without possession in a different formation. Mourinho's use of Eto'o in the Inter Milan team is a prime example of how atatcking players can defend from the front. It's not pretty to watch against teams that are superior to you, but just because Rafa doesn't like tracking back on the right wing, it doesn't mean he can't stick in a tackle whilst in his favourite position just behind the striker. VdV played on the right wing against Blackburn last year and was one of the best tacklers on the pitch, although he was against weaker opposition and had Charlie behind him.
  21. KingLedley73 New Member

    KingLedley73
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2011
    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0
    Like reading all these thoughts here. As a newbie here I'll chip in 4 days after the last post with a couple of quick thoughts of my own.

    Playing Bale at the back is a pretty dodgy policy. He is so dangerous to opponents going forward and should be encouraged to do so, the responsibility of LB is I think unfair and unrealistic, BAE is prone to one moment of insanity per game, but I think he deserves his place for being very consistent. I like the idea of Parker and Sandro as two solid midfielders and the RM role is the least 'nailed on' with Azza's form a bit iffy the last while. VDV has won us some points already this year so he is clearly a player you wouldnt to find a place for,but isnt the problem that Modric & Parker are more suited to central midfield and VDVs only other option is playing off the striker?

    I don't know what the solution is, but I know I'm really excited about seeing Adebayor and JD given the opportunity to form a genuine striking partnership - I think there is a huge potential and this should be the priority over slotting in VDV as Harry may be pressured to do?

    Dont know what you think?
  22. Jdefoe I AM KABOUL'S LOVE CHILD!!!!!

    Jdefoe
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    Location:
    Holland
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0




    I dont understand why lennon should play, he never scores and never gives assist.
    We all know that Defoe in form, can score 20 goals a season and i don't know what you have in mind but YOU CANT LEAVE VDV OUT OF YOUR FIRST 11.
    What do you think that we are real madrid or something.
    And lets try sandro next to king, i mean his defending skills are great and he is also good with the ball, so. this is what i think is the best 11.
    ------------------Friedel
    --------Sandro King/Corluka/Dawson
    Walker---------------------------------BAE
    -------Parker---Modric-------Bale

    ------------------VDV--------------------
    -----------ADE---------Defoe------------
  23. NI Yiddo New Member

    NI Yiddo
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    U.K.
    Ratings:
    +117 / 0 / -0
    The reason Lennon plays at the moment is basically to cover Walker, although if you're a fan of Defoe then you should appreciate how Lennon and Defoe tend to link up well together through-out matches. I like the formation you've posted and the idea of Sando at centre-back with King but it will ultimately result in Walker and Sandro pushing up field, leaving us with two defenders when we lose the ball and nobody on the right to protect a counter-attack. Yes Parker can track back but in a midfield with Modric, VdV and Bale he'd need either VdV or Modric to cover right wing which essentially leaves us back in square one.

    My solution on Fifa is to play Modric as the make-shift winger instead of Van der Vaart / Parker.
  24. Jdefoe I AM KABOUL'S LOVE CHILD!!!!!

    Jdefoe
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    Location:
    Holland
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    You are right, but what can we do? Walker is our only RWB and BAE our only LWB, both are weak defenders and are good attackers.
    HR must buy 2 new backs in January, who are defending better than attacking.
  25. AmericanHotspur Well-Known Member

    AmericanHotspur
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2011
    Messages:
    5,977
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    Ratings:
    +2,042 / 0 / -0
    That'd be one new back... Corluka is injured but he's one of the most defensive RBs you could find. We dont need a new RB. And as for LB? First of all BAE is nowhere close to a weak defending back. One of the top 5 in the prem, and that's not just my opinion. Plus, Danny Rose is a youngster coming through as an LB, not a great defender yet but he has a lot of potential there. To buy a new LB would be a step in the wrong direction, give the kid a chance at least.
  26. Reserrved Well-Known Member

    Reserrved
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,818
    Location:
    United States
    Ratings:
    +1,803 / 21 / -0
    dont know why people hate lennon so much. all the criticism he gets can be said about bale aswell
  27. Yesh! New Member

    Yesh!
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Location:
    Australia
    Ratings:
    +101 / 0 / -0
    i have a feeling this is the most realistic solution that would work for our team.
    Bale---Parker/Sandro----VanDaMan------Modric
    -------Defoe-------------Adebayor------------
  28. Jdefoe I AM KABOUL'S LOVE CHILD!!!!!

    Jdefoe
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    Location:
    Holland
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    NO we have to improve, Man u, Chelsea, are getting better every year and you want to play with Rose, BAE and Walker hahahaaha, you are joking right.
    Man u got defenders like Phill jones, Vidic Etc, who gives strikers like Drogba and Van Persie no chance and we got Walker who got murded by Ashley Young and Kaboul who got eaten by Dzeko, our defenders are the weakest line, we should improve our defending. Harry Redknapp PLEAE FIND 2 new backs and a at least one new Central defender. So we can build on them, because what we have now is from the level Fulham, WBA.
  29. Yankee New Member

    Yankee
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    United States of America
    Ratings:
    +23 / 0 / -0
    BAE a weak defender. What kind of shit is that?!? I don't know what you're watching.
  30. Jdefoe I AM KABOUL'S LOVE CHILD!!!!!

    Jdefoe
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    Location:
    Holland
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0
    I'm talking about his defending skills, i remember last year di maria made BAE equal to the ground and also this year Nani was playing like BAE wasn't there.
    ofcourse he look a good defender agains wolves and blackburn, but trust me Walker and BAE are the weakest defenders you can find, although they are pretty good attackers.

Share This Page